word order problem

Replies to This Discussion

EducatorPermalink Reply by George Hunt on November 12, 2013 at 12:06am

Hi

I suspect that "être connaissant" needs to be taken as a whole  and so could be replaced with , as an example "demander".

So "je lui ai demandé de le partager"  would make perfect sense  as "I asked him to share it"  whereas "il était content de le partager" shifts the authorship of the sharing onto the subject of the first verb .

So reconnaissant  (as I see it) is to be seen as part of  a verbal phrase  rather than as an adjective following "être" .

 

Hope that makes sense (and that it is correct -I  am not all that  confident) .

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Chantal Savignat on November 12, 2013 at 9:19am

Hello Alan

I'm going to try to answer, Sorry if I did't understand your question.

tenses and the part "concordance des temps" is very difficult, and French people do a lot of errors with that (I must admit that I am looking for in a grammar to answer, because if I know how to say something I don't know always why it's like that ... but it's a good exercice for me too), this part is very difficult to apply in another language.

1)

"....reconnaissant si vous le partageriez." => Non

" ...reconnaissant si vous le partagiez" is ok

grammar rules : in a sentence called "subordonnée de condition" (beginning with "si") the verb is never in future tense or in conditional tense.

Concordance des temps :

PRINCIPALE	SUBORDONNÉE	EXEMPLE
Futur de l'indicatif	Présent de l'indicatif	Je serai reconnaissant si vous le partagez.
Présent du conditionnel	Imparfait de l'indicatif	Je serais reconnaissant si vous le partagiez.
Conditionnel passé	Plus-que-parfait de l'indicatif	J'aurais été reconnaissant si vous l'aviez partagé

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by alan gould on November 12, 2013 at 2:53pm

thanks, chantal, as always.  i'd never heard the rule you cite about a clause beginning with "si" and that's very good to know.  However, the question I have about word order logic remains unanswered.  (For some reason, I was unable to get a space between paragraphs so maybe my question was a little hard to read.)  

I said that in order to express "I would be forever grateful if you'd share it" I would have to use your corrected "si" clause because "de le partager" confuses me as to who is sharing it.  I'm thinking that the solution may be to think of the sentence this way -- "I would be forever grateful FOR THE SHARING."  If this approach is right, I will make note of similar constructions when I encounter them, as I imagine other people are confused when they see this, or reluctant to use it themselves.  I can then illustrate several examples of it.    

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Chantal Savignat on November 12, 2013 at 11:14pm

ok

I think I have a better understanding of the question now :-)

this sentence could be written many ways :

Si vous en connaissez un, je vous serai à jamais reconnaissant de le partager.

I understand the confusion, but for a French speaker, there is no possible confusion because of "vous" in "je vous serai reconnaissant"  It's very usual to have a pronoun/complement before the verb. This sentence is the nicest.

Si vous en connaissez un, je vous serais reconnaissant pour le partage : thos sentence is correct too with  "vous"  (je vous serais reconnaissant)

"I would be forever grateful FOR THE SHARING." which could be translate by "Je serais reconnaissant pour le partage" : this way is less ???? in the complete sentence (Si vous en connaissez un, je vous serais reconnaissant pour le partage.) = it's correct but a little weird, it seems that the writer speaks to someone in the first part, and speaks in général in the second part.

"Si vous en connaissez un, je vous serai reconnaissant si vous le partagiez" this way is correct. Just one thing but not important : there is a repetition of "vous" that makes the sentence unwieldy

"Si vous en connaissez un, je serai reconnaissant si vous le partagiez" this way is correct, but ...
 I'm going to try to explain : it's very fine nuance.

Je vous serai reconnaissant de le partager = if someone share the information I will be grateful = I will have a good thinking for this one, I will thank him.   It's a moral grateful ...

Je serai reconnaissant ... is more ambiguous. Even if here, the context shows that it is a moral grateful, but there is a posssibility of a doubt, someone could understand that he could have something more.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by alan gould on November 12, 2013 at 11:39pm

I learned a lot from this.  I'm really glad I asked it.  

I can now see that there's no ambiguity because of the "vous" in the "je vous serai" and this is the first time I've heard that I should avoid using "vous" too much because it's unwieldy.  

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Vedas on November 12, 2013 at 11:49pm

Bonsoir Chantal!

en passant:

attention à l'emploi du conditionnel...après une hypothèse on emploie normalement le conditionnel donc: si vous en connaissez un je vous serais reconnaissant / de le partager/ si vous le partageriez/partagiez (subjonctif)

si vous en connaissez un nous vous serions reconnaissant de le partager.

Le futur aurait un peu valeur d'injonction ce qui serait un peu moins respectueux ou condescendant

I would be forever grateful if you'd share it / Je vous serais à jamais reconnaissant de le partager/ si vous le partageriez/ partagiez:  both are good 

alternative (more elegant and formal): Viendriez vous à le partager que je vous en serais à jamais reconnaissant (not very far from the English "Should you.....")

attention également :

je vous saurais gré de (savoir gré de) / je vous serais (être) reconnaissant (means the same thing but the verb is different)

• ▶ Reply