question about Qui and que

Hi,

So I understand in a very general sense that qui is used when the qui functions as the subject and que is usually the object. I also understand that a subject must agree with the verb and that the object becomes the subject of the passive.

But I came across this sentence:

Nous essayons dans cette partie de trouver les moyens que pourraient mettre à disposition l'état pour calmer cette tentation à la violence.

Could someone clarify: is it que because "les moyens" is receiving the action- that is, it's not actively finding ways, but rather it's being put as a disposal?? is that why it's que and not qui? Because it's receiving the verb and not doing the verb?

and then what about this example:

En voie d'expansion depuis quelques années, l'alternance est très appréciée par les jeunes qui peuvent ainsi se former efficacement tout en étant rémunérés.

is it qui because les jeunes are performing the verb and hence not que because they're not being performed by the verb?

I'm a bit confused- to be honest I always decided qui from que depending upon whether it would be followed by a subject such as a pronoun like je, il, ils or vous or a noun after que....

Thanks in advance

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EducatorPermalink Reply by George Hunt on September 30, 2012 at 11:07am

I think you are right.Qui .is the subject of the verb that follows and .

Que. is the object.
That is how I have always reasoned it...
Your first example is incorrectly written though .It should read

Nous essayons dans cette partie de trouver les moyens que pourrait mettre à disposition l'état pour calmer cette tentation à la violence. -since l'état is in the singular (and the subject)

(I can't format the text for some reason)

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Key StudentPermalink Reply by Peter En on September 30, 2012 at 12:22pm

I suspected that something was amiss because of the lack of accents in the article itself. So in this case would you say that inversion has happened? like the verb is inverted with the subject 'l'état'?' Hopefully! that would make everything a lot less complicated

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EducatorPermalink Reply by George Hunt on September 30, 2012 at 12:31pm

Yes I think the order is inverted.

ie l'état pourrait mettre à disposition les moyens pour calmer cette tentation à la violence would be how it would be said if there was no subordinate clause involved.

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Permalink Reply by Neil Coffey on October 1, 2012 at 3:38am

Yes, it's something called "stylistic inversion", which is quite common in relative clauses. This actually came up in another thread a couple of weeks ago as I recall.

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Key StudentPermalink Reply by Peter En on October 1, 2012 at 12:30pm

thanks for the help!

I remember that thread! although this time I had thought it was to do with some weird feature with Qui and Que- but it turns out to have been a mistake in the original source!