An Idiom (I think)

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Permalink Reply by Robert on November 16, 2014 at 5:48pm

I might venture an answer to that questions-
'Des' is not appropriate because it implies actuality : some secousses already happens.
'De ces secousses' allows secousses to remain an abstraction, which is the intent: there is only a desire that the shock not happen, a subjunctive context.

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EducatorPermalink Reply by George Hunt on November 16, 2014 at 6:34pm

So is it current French to use the "de ces  secousses" or "de ces ...(any other suitable noun) " to mean "some (or one)  of those  shocks" ?

Is it  a common usage?  I like it but can't say I have come across it  before really and don't feel comfortable with it.

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Permalink Reply by Vedas on November 16, 2014 at 10:35pm

yes quite common, for instance you have the expression:

un de ces quatre matins (at some point in the near future)

other examples:

un de ces jours où tout va de travers (one of these days when everything goes awry)

J'aime le souvenir de ces époques nues (Beaudelaire)

I Love to Think of Those Naked Epochs

it can also be a means to emphasize something:

- Tu m'as fait une de ces peurs!

- Il y avait alors un de ces orages.

- J'ai hâte d'arriver au restaurant; j'ai une de ces faims!

 

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EducatorPermalink Reply by George Hunt on November 16, 2014 at 11:35pm

No , Vedas I disagree. All your examples are of  "un de ces...." (which I am familiar with)

Here it seems to be  simply " de ces  secousses..."   without the "un" . I can still see how that might  also make sense but it is a different construction  surely?

Here it is " intéressé à ce qu’il n’arrive pas ..................de ces secousses subites qui....."

not "une de ses secousses"

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Permalink Reply by Robert on November 17, 2014 at 5:32am

The 'de' in the current example seems not to mean some amount of something. It is just a preposition needed by the verb arriver. You will find many similar usages :

Il bénéficiera de ces facilités jusqu'à l'expiration des délais de recours.

Le gaz arrive de ces pays par canalisations.

Permalink Reply by Grégory on November 17, 2014 at 8:58am

"De ces" and "un de ces" have an emphatic use :

J'ai vu de ces choses... Tu ne me croirais pas si je te racontais !

J'ai vu une de ces voitures... Elle était à tomber par terre !

In the emphatic use there's a kind of break in the flow of speech and that break doesn't match with a regular syntactic end.  

The difference between "de ces" and "un de ces"  is plural vs. singular : "de ces" refers to several things, "une de ces" only one.

"De ces" and  "un de ces" have also a regular meaning which has nothing to do with emphasis. "De ces secousses..." is in that case.

"Un de ces" is selective, it gets out one thing from a group,  like in  English :

J'ai vu (l')une de ces voitures, mais je ne me souviens plus laquelle exactement.

"De ces" often goes with "que/qui" and it works as an indirect identification of vaguely similar things :   

J'ai mangé de ces fruits qu'on ne trouve qu'aux Antilles

J'ai rencontré de ces hommes qui vous font vraiment sentir femme

Il est encore intéressé à ce qu’il n’arrive pas (...) de ces secousses subites qui (...) peuvent troubler la tranquillité publique

Actually the adressee (or the reader) is supposed to already know what is suggested or already having experienced it. The meaning can be allusive on purpose at times and at other times the thing is just too vague to be clearly named.       

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EducatorPermalink Reply by George Hunt on November 17, 2014 at 11:27am

Thanks Gregory.Yes that makes sense. I had come across it I am sure  but I had kind of forgotten it  and was unsure of it ,perhaps because it is a way of speaking that I have never felt comfortable using myself.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Morrow on November 17, 2014 at 10:53pm

Gregory

Thank you, and all who have commented. I see now that what confused me is not an idiom, merely a usage that I never grasped (or possibly forgot long ago). Moreover, the intervening phrase starting with "dans" threw me. "Dans" is one of those words that seems to elude my mind, and the sentence structure with that intervening clause strikes me as very unFrench though it would not have surprised me in German. 

I have been following this thread through its twists and turns. And I would like to come back in by showing what my most recent translation is and asking for any comments. I want to stay close to the original French while writing clear and idiomatic English.

[The state] “is especially interested that there not occur in the price of necessities those sudden shocks that, by plunging the people into the horrors of shortage, may threaten the public tranquility and the safety of citizens and magistrates.” 

Notice by the way the distinction between "le peuple" and "les citoyens." Turgot may well have been a man with a good heart, but he was still a man of his age.

For those who are curious, the quotation itself is from what Turgot intended to be a draft of an Eloge de Vincent de Gournay, as Vedas appears to have figured out on his own. Turgot did not expect its appearance in print unedited, which may explain what I still think is a rather awkward sentence.  

Again, thank you all for your help. I'll be back for more. It is sad to have forgotten so many languages. If you do not use them, you do lose them.

Jeff

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