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Ne voilà-t-il pas ...
Would anyone like to analyse the syntax of the expression "ne voilà-t-il pas"?
Replies to This Discussion
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EducatorPermalink Reply by George Hunt on -
From my perspective (first time I have seen it) it seems to be a once off kind of an expression.
For example you cannot use it in the form of "il voilà que...."
From what I have seen it seems , logically (is that the same as syntactically?) to be as if the word "voilà" has been parachuted into the phrase "n'est-il pas" so that "voilà " replaces "est" but adds an emphasis (because it feels a bit out of place).
As for meaning it seems that "wouldn't you know" can sometimes be an equivalent
eg
Je n'avais pas mon parapluie et ne voilà-t-il pas qu'il s'est mis à pleuvoir!
I did not have my umbrella and won't you believe it, it started to rain!
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Permalink Reply by Jean Dervin on
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I don't know about "once off". It's used by Maupassant.
I know what it means and how it's used, but I can't quite work out the syntax. That was my question.
I'm a bit puzzled that you haven't seen it before but can give examples of its use.
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Permalink Reply by Chantal Savignat on
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The syntax of "ne voilà-t'il pas ..." :
It's built as an interrogative "oui/non" + negative form where "voilà" would be a verb.
negative + literary interrogative oui/non : Ne mange t'il pas du chocolat ?
There is a "t" in the middle of the sentence for an easier flow between two vowels.
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Moi, j'aurais écrit <ne mange-t-il pas>. Mais ...
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Permalink Reply by Chantal Savignat on
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oups,
oui, vous avez raison, il faut un tiret "-" entre "mange" et le "t"
mais on trouve très souvent une apostrophe entre "t" et "il", je vais aller à la recherche de la règle de grammaire ...
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Peut-être qu'on y trouve souvent une apostrophe, mais c'est un usage fautif.
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Permalink Reply by Chantal Savignat on
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oui, on le trouve écrit n'importe comment en France,et on l'écrit n'importe comment la plupart du temps : avec ou sans tiret(s), avec ou sans apostrophe,
on finit par ne plus savoir comment il faut l'écrire.
J'ai donc bien fait la même faute les deux fois :
"Ne voilà-t-il pas ..."
et "Ne mange-t-il pas"
en tout cas c'est bien la même structure.
Certains textes font référence à "voilà" comme la contraction de "vois" et "là"
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EducatorPermalink Reply by George Hunt on -
Well by "once off" I just meant that it seemed to me to be a usage of the language that was unrelated to other usages (though when I first saw it I didn't appreciate it was a mainstream usage at all).
It didn't seem to fit in. It looked like a mistake or an anomoly.
I found instances of its use by serching on the internet where other [people have been discussing it.
If you google my example (in quotes) you can find where I got it from.
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1638246
Do my "parachute" analogy not answer your syntax question?
Could not "Ne voilà-t-il pas" follow the same syntax as "n'est-il pas" ? (I am no way expert at syntax-just trying to guess)
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You ask: "Could not "Ne voilà-t-il pas" follow the same syntax as "n'est-il pas"? If you take "voilà" as a verb, I suppose it could, but it isn't really a verb (although it is obviously formed from the verb "voir" and the adverb "là"). The question is, I suppose, how and why "voilà" takes on this quasi-verbal function. And it's more like "n'y-a-t-il pas" than "n'est-il pas".
The 't' is obviously there for the purpose of euphony, like "a-t-il" and similar formulations.
The Maupassant quotation (from "la Vie Errante") is: "Ne voilà-t-il pas les sept châteaux du ciel de sainte Thérèse", which might be translated as "And don't forget the seven heavenly mansions of St Theresa".
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EducatorPermalink Reply by George Hunt on -
I have a suspicion that the answer as to why it took on a quasi verbal function might lie in how it was used in historical times-.
For me (even though I agree it is perfect French) it jared as an expression because I always assume that there is an imperative inside the "voilà" and here it is being used in an interrogative way.
I am not sure I could get used to using it myself. Would it be more a literary kind of expression?
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Permalink Reply by Neil Coffey on
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The key to understanding where this comes from is to understand that the "il" isn't really "il" as such.
What happened was that the "t-il" at one point became re-analysed as a "general question marker", often abbreviated to variants such as "ti", "t'y". In other words, people heard "Mon frère vient-il?" and heard it as "Mon frère vient ti?", and then the "ti" was extended to other persons. So at one point it was common-- at least in 'uneducated' speech-- so form questions such as the following:
"Vous avez-ti terminé?"
"Je serai-ti rentré demain matin?" (example cited by Price, I believe comes from Harmar & Renchon)
You'll find other occasional examples in literature.
The form "(ne) voilà-t-il pas?" appears to have sprung up on an analogy with such forms. So the "il" isn't at that stage really an "il" as such (as George says, you can't actually say "il voilà...").
In general, I think this hasn't really 'taken off' as a piece of slang/uneducated usage and is pretty much dying out. But, it just so turns out that the form with "voilà" has gained more ground and, while the other forms are pretty much dead, this one has become more and more acceptable, to the point where many speakers who wouldn't even dream of using "ti" in the other cases mentioned above would use "(ne) voilà t'il pas que...." in informal usage.
How do you analyse it syntactically? Well, pretty much any way you want. It's a essentially a fixed form that is not part of productive syntax.
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Sounds plausible, though it seems odd that Maupassant used it, and it doesn't explain why the "voilà" usage seems to occur only in the negative.
You say "example cited by Price, I believe comes from Harmar & Renchon". Always glad to see references, but half-references aren't much use. Not being a professional or academic linguist, I have no idea who or what is being referred to here. Nor has an attempted Google enlightened me.
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