Lequel vs. Celui

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EducatorPermalink Reply by George Hunt on June 3, 2014 at 4:50pm

I am not really familiar with these usages (although I have seen them before).

In the first of your  expressions I think we can deduce that all of the witnesses  mentioned in the first half of the sentence will arrive tomorrow but that there may be other people arriving who may not themselves be witnesses.

In the second expression I feel that all of the people arriving tomorrow will be witnesses. (unless the author continues by  explicitly  telling us that there is another group  also coming.)

I mean I think the second expression is saying that the people arriving tomorrow  will be the witnesses whilst in the first expression  he is just saying that there are five  witnesses coming  without implying that they  comprise the   whole group of people coming.

Perhaps you agree with me? (perhaps I am mistaken).

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Permalink Reply by Robert on June 3, 2014 at 7:00pm

Now I see that the 2 statements are not interchangeable- definitely not. But after that, I don't quite see things your way. But your mentioning of the idea of group selection/identification makes me think hard.

I think that the 1st statement is fairly easy to understand: the 'lesquels...' clause adds a piece of information about that group of people, and that's all it does.

The 2nd statement seems to assume that that information ('veut arrive') is already known to the listener, and uses it as a mean of identifying the group, as if to say: you know about those guys, right? -the ones that (you know) will arrive tomorrow.

I hope you see some insights from that as I saw some from your post.
Funny how something seeming so concise and simple at first glance can turn out quite complicated.

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EducatorPermalink Reply by George Hunt on June 3, 2014 at 7:23pm

Yes it makes my head hurt too.

I think you are right about it implying (in the second expression) that  the listener is already aware that some people are due to arrive  -but on the other hand I can also  understand the situation (again in the second expression ) as  if this is   not already known.

There seem to be lots of permutations and emphases possible.

By the way  ,in the  first example  I am taking "lesquels témoins"  to have no other meaning  than "qui" -it is just a  more ponderous way of saying the same thing.

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Permalink Reply by Chantal Savignat on June 4, 2014 at 8:05am

Hello.

And I will add some complication.

There is an error in the second sentence written like that.

2 possibilities :

- Il y a cinq témoins, ceux-ci (or ceux-là) vont arriver demain.

   => the both sentences are very close and may be interchangeable. "ceux-ci"  replace "lesquels témoins" and it avoid the repetition of "témoins". Considering the meaning, "ceux-ci" =  the whole "5 témoins".

- Il y a cinq témoins, ceux qui vont arriver demain sont les témoins de la défense.

=> "ceux qui" :the real subject for the verb vont is "qui" and "qui" is for "ceux".  And the sentence needs a next part.

considering the meaning we don't know if "ceux" = "5 témoins" the way of this sentence imply it's not the case.

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Permalink Reply by Robert on June 4, 2014 at 11:18am

I sort of felt something was not quite tight and snug, just didn't know exactly what. Now I can see ceux-ci is needed to refer to what comes before. I appreciate that.

In your next sentence, the 'ceux' refers to any 'subset' of what comes before, doesn't it? - could be 2 or 3 people out of the 5 . But in this case, 'Ceux' starts a new and complete sentence doesn't it ? (though still refers to the 'Il y a...'). So it would make more sense that it should start after a period:

Il y a cinq témoins. Ceux qui vont arriver demain sont les témoins de la défense.

And come to think of it, should the 1st sentence be split up also? :
Il y a cinq témoins. Ceux-ci (or ceux-là) vont arriver demain.

Or better with hyphen?
Il y a cinq témoins - ceux-ci (or ceux-là) vont arriver demain.

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Permalink Reply by Chantal Savignat on June 5, 2014 at 8:28am

I am reading again these sentences and your questions. And today I can see again new meanings (more some nuances) in this sentence, depending on the position of the point, the comma, and the context (the most important) ...

A question may become a big interrogation.

In your next sentence, the 'ceux' refers to any 'subset' of what comes before, doesn't it? - could be 2 or 3 people out of the 5 .=> yes and no. I can see now 2 possibilities.

1) We may suppose that a first man seeing there are 2 witnesses says "how many witnesses (implied in total) are there ?" and the answer would be "there are 5 witnesses (implied in total). 2 of them are here today (maybe the prosecution), and the 3 others tomorrow will be defense's ones".

2) we would say the same sentence meaning "there are 5 witnesses today, and some others will arrive tomorrow" in this case "ceux" are other witnesses more.

But in this case, 'Ceux' starts a new and complete sentence doesn't it ? => yes.

So it would make more sense that it should start after a period => yes in theory. but this rule is flexible.

idem for the first sentence.

but the hyphen here : no. Not like that. But with some slight adaptions : yes (all is possible with some adaptations ;-) ) I think about that and I will come back later.

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Permalink Reply by Robert on June 5, 2014 at 4:57pm

So ceux can even refer to another group entirely. I would be a lot more inclined to see that from a statement like this:

Il y a cinq témoins aujourd'hui, ceux qui vont arriver demain sont les témoins de la défense.

(But that sounds like too many elements packed into 1 sardine can, to my English ears)

But you are the French authority.

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Permalink Reply by Chantal Savignat on June 5, 2014 at 10:54pm

Il y a cinq témoins aujourd'hui, ceux qui vont arriver demain sont les témoins de la défense.

yessss this sentence is ok.

and ceux refers to another group entirely.

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Permalink Reply by Robert on June 4, 2014 at 12:03pm

But now you got me thinking all over again-- As pronom démonstratif, ceux actually does't need to be a subject to a verb. For instance, you might say this while pointing a finger at some group of people:

Il y a cinq témoins, ceux-là !

So, instead of pointing finger, I might add a piece of information to identify **which** group:

Il y a cinq témoins, ceux-ci qui vont arriver demain.
(That is close to my original statement)
(And note, ceux still doesn't need to be the start of a complete sentence)

Do I have a valid point here?

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Permalink Reply by Chantal Savignat on June 5, 2014 at 10:55pm

il y a cinq témoins, ceux là ! pointing a finger at some group of people => it's ok

Il y a cinq témoins, ceux-ci qui vont arriver demain => no, not like that. 

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