The use of 'des', 'de', 'de la' and 'du'

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Permalink Reply by Neil Coffey on September 8, 2011 at 6:01pm

OK, broadly speaking, "de" + the definite article can have 3 meanings:

 

- it can have it's literal meaning of "of the..." (or "from the..." etc, depending on the precise meaning of "de" in the sentence in question)

- it can have a special meaning of "some...": in this sense it functions as an indefinite article;

- it can also have the meaning of "some of the...": in this sense it functions as what is sometimes called a "partitive" article.

 

Then, with any of these meanings, "de" + "le" is replaced by "du", and "de + les" is replaced by "des". There's really nothing special about "des": it can basically have any of the three meanings above, just like "du" and "de la".

 

So for example:

 

Il vient de la ville.

= "He comes/is coming from the town."

Il vient du village.

= "He comes/is coming from the village."

 

So in this case, "de" just takes on its literal meaning of "from"; "du" is effectively just a (necessary) replacement for "de le", but doesn't change the underlying meaning of "de".

 

Then, you have cases where "de" + the definite article don't individually take on a literal meaning, but combine to give the meaning of "some (of the)":

 

J'ai mangé du gâteau.

= "I've eaten some cake" or "I've eaten some of the cake"

J'ai mangé des pommes.

= "I've eaten some apples" or "I've eaten some of the apples"

 

This leads to the occasional case where you have to be careful, e.g.:

 

Une bouteille d'eau.

= "A bottle of water." (i.e. of any water in the universe)

Une bouteille de l'eau.

= "A bottle of the water" (i.e. of some specific previously mentioned water)

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Permalink Reply by Maggie Ariotti on March 7, 2012 at 8:16pm

okay, thanks for what you explained below. I have another question about de, because I think I read in another post (possibly yours) about des representing something specific - and I can't seem to find it again or in my vast collection of French grammars.....

for example, in your sentence below " j'ai mangé du gateau" (some cake in partic) as opposed to j'ai mangé de gateau ( I ate a bunch of cake today--no cake in particular, just cake everywhere I went--

Is that right? 

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Permalink Reply by Neil Coffey on March 9, 2012 at 5:10pm

The phrase J'ai mangé de gâteau isn't grammatical in this sentence as it stands.

As I mentioned, J'ai mangé du gâteau can really mean either: it can mean "I ate some (unspecified) cake" or "I ate some of the specific cake that we're talking about".

The main place you'd use de is in the negative, where there is then indeed generally a contrast in meaning between "de" and "du":

       Je n'ai pas mangé de gâteau. = "I haven't eaten any cake"

vs: Je n'ai pas mangé du gâteau. = "I haven't eaten any of the cake"

Maybe it was cases like this that you were thinking/reading about?

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Permalink Reply by teresa.mackinnon on March 9, 2012 at 10:49pm

a quick guide on this would be:

after a negative and an expression of quantity you contract to de (un kilo de...il n'y a pas de..) otherwise use the partitive ie je voudrais de la tarte/du vin et de l'eau/ A more detailed account can be found here: http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/de-vs-du-de-la-des.htm

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Permalink Reply by Maggie Ariotti on March 10, 2012 at 6:54am

Thanks! your links were a great help. I went to about.com myself, but was so panicked about my situation that I couldn't find them.

Thanks very much!

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Permalink Reply by Frantz Denis on March 10, 2012 at 5:00am

I understand your confusion, and it is not really difficult you would have to apply yourself; the following examples will make you understand correctly the nuances:

the partitive article is nothing else, for the meaning, than an indefinite article placed before the noun of the objects that can be counted to indicate that a part of the species is designated by the noun; it is essentially the preposition      (de) diverted from its usual function, which is to mark a relationship.

by example:

J'ai bu du (de+le) vin

I drank some wine

J'ai bu de la biere (the combination of (de+la) remains as such because ( la) is feminine singular)

de l'eau (de + l')

Manger des confitures (de+les)

The partitive article is formed with the preposition (de) by itself or combined with the definite article; it has the following forms:

For the Masculin:

In singular: du, de l';  in plural: des (de).

For the Feminine:

In singular: de la, de l'; in plural:  des (de) Example: J'ai mange une pomme Plural: J'ai mange des pommes

 

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