Just to clarify re Form of past participle agreements

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Frank on July 20, 2009 at 3:45pm

Hello Wendy,

The subject is "elle", not "des pâtes". So, "préparé" should be enough.

To better understand this, you can flip both parts of the sentence:

Elle s'est préparé quelle sorte de pâtes ?

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Permalink Reply by Marc Vonhalmen on July 20, 2009 at 5:49pm

Yes, but it's "préparée". Pronominal verbs using the verb "être" agree with the subject (here: "elle").
Quelle sorte de pâtes s'est-elle préparée ?
Elle s'est préparée quelle sorte de pâtes ?

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Permalink Reply by wendy White on July 20, 2009 at 7:01pm

I was thinking that because the direct object (the pasta) is placed before the verb, there would be agreement with the pasta?

E.G Il s'est cassé la jambe
Quelle jambe s'est-il casée? (direct object before verb = agreement with direct object)

Wend

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Permalink Reply by Frank on July 20, 2009 at 8:07pm

You're confused with "quelle" (which) and "qu'elle" (that she).

The rule with the direct object would apply here:

C'est la jambe qu'elle s'est cassée
Ce sont les pâtes qu'il a préparées

Unlike the previous example, you can't flip both parts of the sentence:

"qu'elle s'est cassé c'est la jambe" wouldn't make any sense.

The direct object is "qu'" that stands for la jambe/les pâtes.

Now in "elle s'est préparé quelle sorte de pâtes" (or the flipped version), you're perfectly right, it should be "elle s'est préparée", unlike what I wrote in my previous reply, because it's "elle". I'm awfully sorry for the mistake.

There's an exception, though, and it's a very common one, it's the verb "faire".

For some reason, "fait" should stay as-is:

Elle s'est fait prendre la main dans le sac (she got caught red handed)
Ils se sont fait gronder par leurs parents

Hope it helps,

-Frank.

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Permalink Reply by wendy White on July 20, 2009 at 9:37pm

Thankyou Frank

I get "Ce sont les pâtes qu'il a préparées" as your example - Thankyou

Your example uses avoir and I'm needing to get reflexive verbs using être into my brain!

I think your example "Elle s'est préparé quelle sorte de pâtes ?" Makes the best sense!

I just want to understand what happens when the direct object precedes the verb in a reflexive/être kinda way!

Wend

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Permalink Reply by Frank on July 20, 2009 at 11:38pm

Your example uses avoir and I'm needing to get reflexive verbs using être into my brain!

Here are some examples with être:

Une paire de chaussure, qui est portée par John.

Des pâtes qui seront mangées par Wendy.
Des pâtes qui sont mangées par Wendy.
Des pâtes qui ont été mangées par Wendy.

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Permalink Reply by wendy White on July 20, 2009 at 10:01pm

I know...

How about Elle se les est préparées??

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Permalink Reply by Frank on July 20, 2009 at 11:35pm

"Préparer" uses the "avoir" auxiliary, so it should be: Elle se les ait préparées.

Grammar of reflexive forms is quite tricky.

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Permalink Reply by Marc Vonhalmen on July 20, 2009 at 11:59pm

Sorry to contradict you again, but what you said is incorrect. "Elle se les ait préparées" alone is absolutely impossible. You can say:
- Il faut qu'elle les ait préparées (but not "qu'elle se les ait"). Then, it would rather be:
- Il faut qu'elle se les soit préparée(s)
- J'espère qu'elle se les est préparée(s).

Now, is there a "s" or not? Actually, no. When there is a pronominal verb, the verb "être" always agrees with the subject, even if there's an object after it and before the verb. Hence :

Elle se les est préparée.

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Permalink Reply by wendy White on July 21, 2009 at 12:13am

Hmm.
I thought that ait was subjunctive of avoir so it didn't makes much sense to me either.
And I would have thought that there would be an 's' because when the direct object /direst object pronoun precedes the verb it should agree.
Elle se les est achetés (She bought them for herself (m pl))
Ils se les sont donnés (They gave them to each other (m pl)
Elle se les est préparées (f pl) As in my pâtes question!!

However, I have had enough pasta for one evening!

I hope that we can continue and you can help me further dans le matin!

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Permalink Reply by Frank on July 21, 2009 at 12:34am

Thanks for pointing this out Marc.

This is indeed very tricky, even for native speakers. I asked around and everybody was hesitating about this one. I ended up asking Google and found a discussion about that point, that seemed to favor "ait préparées", it's why I changed my initial answer to use "avoir" instead of "être".
I guess this is something that we say, but that we don't dare to write :)

Thanks for bringing up that interesting grammar point Wendy.

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Permalink Reply by Neil Coffey on July 21, 2009 at 5:42am

Marc-- conventionally, that's not true!

If the clitic pronoun (se here) is not the direct object, then conventionally, the agreement isn't with that pronoun; it's with whatever other element of the sentence is the direct object (provided that comes before the participle). So conventionally:

Les gâteaux-- elle se les est préparés.

It is just an arbitrary convention and you're of course free to ignore it (it's just a pointless spelling complication nowadays). But that's definitely the traditional convention.

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