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Permalink Reply by Frank on January 14, 2010 at 3:11pm

Français oral

Good.

J'ai besoin de temps pour être familiers avec la accent français avant que je puisse parler français comme un Français

J'ai besoin de temps pour être familier avec l’accent français avant que je puisse parler français comme un Français

J'attends cette réunion qui se déroulera en français si on les laisse parce que certains termes de financiers français ne sont pas complètement maîtrisée par moi.

J'attends cette réunion qui se déroulera en anglais si c’est possible parce que je ne maitrise pas complètement les termes financiers en français.

Français n'est pas ma langue maternelle

Le français n'est pas ma langue maternelle.

Ne serait "français n'est pas ma langue maternelle" être la même?
Français n'est pas ma langue maternelle

Est-ce que «le français n’est pas ma langue maternelle » ne serait pas pareil ?

Ou est-il une autre façon de le dire?

Ou y a t-il une autre façon de le dire ?

J'ai appris le français dans mon temps libre comme un amateur sans assister un cours de français

J'ai appris le français pendant mon temps libre en tant qu’amateur sans (jamais) assister à un cours de français.

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EducatorPermalink Reply by stu harris on January 14, 2010 at 4:59pm

Bonjour Frank:

I'm sure I've seen an implicit negative slipped in with the subjunctive, like this:
"...avant que je ne puisse parler français comme un Français"

Am I imagining that -- or is it perhaps a feature of written French only? It sure doesn't seem logical -- but then, who ever said language was logical?

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Permalink Reply by Frank on January 14, 2010 at 5:08pm

Hi Stu,

This tiny word is tricky.

"avant que je ne puisse parler français comme un Français" is absolutely correct. And in written French, you're supposed to use it.

However, in daily speech, we tend to always elide it. To the point that most people tend to forget about its existence even when they write. Saying "avant que je ne puisse" would be good in a formal context, but somewhat pedant the rest of the time.

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EducatorPermalink Reply by stu harris on January 14, 2010 at 5:37pm

Merci. So -- just to wrap up this little excursion into the language you'd never need to order a pastis -- is it possible to state a rule for when the "ne" is required and when it isn't?

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Permalink Reply by Frank on January 14, 2010 at 5:48pm

In daily speech, I think it's safe to assume that you never need to use it. Even in a typical negative structure with ne...pas, ne...jamais or ne...rien, we rarely say the "ne". The only exception I can think about is when "ne" is the first word of a sentence and the first character of the next word is a vowel, as in "N'y va pas !".

However we'd tend to favor "Fais rien pour le moment" over "Ne fais rien pour le moment" because "fais" is starting with a consonant.

In a more formal context, "ne" is obviously required to form a typical negative as in the above examples.

"avant que je ne puisse parler français comme un Français" is a totally different beast. This "ne" doesn't really introduce any kind of a negative phrase. I think this specific "ne" is only required in a que... + subjunctive structure, when it introduces a goal that hasn't been reached yet.

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Permalink Reply by Neil Coffey on January 15, 2010 at 5:19am

The situation is quite complex, but just to expand a bit on what Frank was saying. Usually, ne is omitted in everyday, spontaneous informal speech. Some further pointers:

- ne is more frequently used in negative commands (which I think is probably why n'y vas pas! would be preferred-- conversely, if you think about the expression il n'y a pas, this is elided to y a pas, without the ne);
- when the subject is a noun (or rien or personne), ne is apparently more frequent-- so people would tend to say either ta soeur ne vient pas or elle vient pas, ta soeur (using the pronoun in subject position makes ommission of ne more likely), but wouldn't so often tend to say ta soeur vient pas;
- there are cases where the speaker has the option of "eliding something else" instead of ne-- e.g. in il n'a pas..., either the -l or the ne can be elided (i n'a pas or il a pas), but not both-- so if the speaker chooses to pronounce il as i', they then insert the ne;
- generally, ne appears to be more common with negatives other than pas, and more frequently omitted when the negative word is pas (though it can be omitted with other negatives);
- if il is omitted in impersonal expressions, then ne tends to be omitted too (so faut pas le faire!, not ne faut pas le faire!).

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Permalink Reply by Frank on January 15, 2010 at 12:07pm

Let me emphasize how important the "ne"/"n'" ellipsis is.

If you want to sound like a native speaker, this is one of the most important thing to master, if not the most important one.

Understanding the fact that "ne" is often elided is also important in order to improve your listening comprehension.

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Liu on January 15, 2010 at 4:04pm

Hi Frank,

Merci beaucoup pour ton aide.

> J'ai appris le français pendant mon temps libre en tant qu’amateur sans (jamais) assister à un
> cours de français.

Why "pendant" is used here NO "dans" ?

en tant qu'
means "as" ? No article "le/la" before "amateur"?

B.R.
satimis

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Permalink Reply by Frank on January 15, 2010 at 4:13pm

Hi Stephen,

Pendant is often the word to use when talking about a period of time. In order to guess whether Pendant or dans should be used, a rule of thumb could be: ask yourself whether you'd be able to rephrase it in English using "while" or "during" instead of "in".
If you can, and you usually can, Pendant is likely to be the right way to translate "in" in French. And in this case, dans wouldn't be a viable alternative.
If you can't, dans is probably the right word.

Dans le futur
Dans les temps anciens
Pendant que j'étais au concert de U2
Pendant le match de hockey
Pendant qu'il était parti

Also don't forget a third case: Quand which is a literal translation of When most of the time.

Quand j'étais jeune

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Permalink Reply by Stephen Liu on January 15, 2010 at 5:22pm

Hi Frank,

Pendant qu'il était parti
Can it be translated as "While/When he was gone" ?

Quand j'étais jeune
When I was young

To say "While I was young", how to translate it to French ?


B.R.
satimis

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Permalink Reply by Frank on January 15, 2010 at 5:45pm

Hi Stephen,

Pendant qu'il était parti
Can it be translated as "While/When he was gone" ?

Yes, Sir.

Quand j'étais jeune
When I was young

Yep.

To say "While I was young", how to translate it to French ?

Probably Pendant que j'étais jeune although I'm not sure that English makes the same distinction between While I was young and When I was young as French does.

Pendant que j'étais jeune implies that you would now be unable to do it again.
For example J'ai appris beaucoup de choses pendant que j'étais jeune. By saying this, in some way, you feel as if you wouldn't be able to study again nowadays. It's all downhill from here.
One way to emphasize this would be to add encore with the meaning of "still": pendant que j'étais encore jeune.

In contrast, J'ai appris beaucoup de choses quand j'étais jeune doesn't suggest that you wouldn't be able to do again what you did in the past.

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EducatorPermalink Reply by stu harris on January 15, 2010 at 5:19pm

Neil, thanks for the reminder on negative contractions. One in particular for novices to be on the lookout for is the contraction of "Je ne sais pas" - I don't know. First the "ne' is eliminated, then some of the "je" and "sais." It ends up sounding as shépa, and you hear it all the time in conversation.

Before anyone starts complaining about the French mangling their language, remember that we do it too. Dunno or d'know are just as common as shépa. When was the last time you heard "President of the United States" pronounced in full. Even professional broadacsters go "Prezzernitedstates."

I rest my case.

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