Discuss and learn French: French vocabulary, French grammar, French culture etc.
I am not really familiar with these usages (although I have seen them before).
In the first of your expressions I think we can deduce that all of the witnesses mentioned in the first half of the sentence will arrive tomorrow but that there may be other people arriving who may not themselves be witnesses.
In the second expression I feel that all of the people arriving tomorrow will be witnesses. (unless the author continues by explicitly telling us that there is another group also coming.)
I mean I think the second expression is saying that the people arriving tomorrow will be the witnesses whilst in the first expression he is just saying that there are five witnesses coming without implying that they comprise the whole group of people coming.
Perhaps you agree with me? (perhaps I am mistaken).
Yes it makes my head hurt too.
I think you are right about it implying (in the second expression) that the listener is already aware that some people are due to arrive -but on the other hand I can also understand the situation (again in the second expression ) as if this is not already known.
There seem to be lots of permutations and emphases possible.
By the way ,in the first example I am taking "lesquels témoins" to have no other meaning than "qui" -it is just a more ponderous way of saying the same thing.
And I will add some complication.
There is an error in the second sentence written like that.
2 possibilities :
- Il y a cinq témoins, ceux-ci (or ceux-là) vont arriver demain.
=> the both sentences are very close and may be interchangeable. "ceux-ci" replace "lesquels témoins" and it avoid the repetition of "témoins". Considering the meaning, "ceux-ci" = the whole "5 témoins".
- Il y a cinq témoins, ceux qui vont arriver demain sont les témoins de la défense.
=> "ceux qui" :the real subject for the verb vont is "qui" and "qui" is for "ceux". And the sentence needs a next part.
considering the meaning we don't know if "ceux" = "5 témoins" the way of this sentence imply it's not the case.
I am reading again these sentences and your questions. And today I can see again new meanings (more some nuances) in this sentence, depending on the position of the point, the comma, and the context (the most important) ...
A question may become a big interrogation.
In your next sentence, the 'ceux' refers to any 'subset' of what comes before, doesn't it? - could be 2 or 3 people out of the 5 .=> yes and no. I can see now 2 possibilities.
1) We may suppose that a first man seeing there are 2 witnesses says "how many witnesses (implied in total) are there ?" and the answer would be "there are 5 witnesses (implied in total). 2 of them are here today (maybe the prosecution), and the 3 others tomorrow will be defense's ones".
2) we would say the same sentence meaning "there are 5 witnesses today, and some others will arrive tomorrow" in this case "ceux" are other witnesses more.
But in this case, 'Ceux' starts a new and complete sentence doesn't it ? => yes.
So it would make more sense that it should start after a period => yes in theory. but this rule is flexible.
idem for the first sentence.
but the hyphen here : no. Not like that. But with some slight adaptions : yes (all is possible with some adaptations ;-) ) I think about that and I will come back later.
Il y a cinq témoins aujourd'hui, ceux qui vont arriver demain sont les témoins de la défense.
yessss this sentence is ok.
and ceux refers to another group entirely.
il y a cinq témoins, ceux là ! pointing a finger at some group of people => it's ok
Il y a cinq témoins, ceux-ci qui vont arriver demain => no, not like that.