Wich answer is right? - French Language2024-03-28T12:04:43Zhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/forum/topics/wich-answer-is-right?commentId=3179028%3AComment%3A12112&feed=yes&xn_auth=noA problem with that analysis…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-02-12:3179028:Comment:121152010-02-12T17:25:00.219ZNeil Coffeyhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/NeilCoffey
A problem with that analysis is that the verb (infinitive) itself could actually take an object. For example: <b>On lui a fait entrer <u>les provisions</u></b>. ("They made him/her bring the shopping in.")<br />
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(In this case, I think it's more of an academic question though-- if you just remember that in the construction <b>faire</b> + infinitive, the past participle <b>fait</b> is invariable, I think you don't need to worry too much about subjects, objects...)
A problem with that analysis is that the verb (infinitive) itself could actually take an object. For example: <b>On lui a fait entrer <u>les provisions</u></b>. ("They made him/her bring the shopping in.")<br />
<br />
(In this case, I think it's more of an academic question though-- if you just remember that in the construction <b>faire</b> + infinitive, the past participle <b>fait</b> is invariable, I think you don't need to worry too much about subjects, objects...) Well, you're overcomplicating…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-02-12:3179028:Comment:121122010-02-12T14:35:42.738ZFrankhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/j
Well, you're overcomplicating things :)<br />
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"fait" + verb is a very common construction. Just keep in mind that the second verb is always in its infinitive form.
Well, you're overcomplicating things :)<br />
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"fait" + verb is a very common construction. Just keep in mind that the second verb is always in its infinitive form. Hi Frank just one thought,
c…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-02-12:3179028:Comment:121092010-02-12T10:05:56.475ZSteve Hajduhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/SteveHajdu
Hi Frank just one thought,<br />
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can we argue that the real direct object in this case is the " entrer", placed after the verb. Qu'est-ce quil a fait? il a fait entrer.<br />
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Or am I just overcomplicating things?
Hi Frank just one thought,<br />
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can we argue that the real direct object in this case is the " entrer", placed after the verb. Qu'est-ce quil a fait? il a fait entrer.<br />
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Or am I just overcomplicating things? Thanks Frank, I like your exp…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-02-12:3179028:Comment:121032010-02-12T09:03:00.749ZSteve Hajduhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/SteveHajdu
Thanks Frank, I like your explanations.
Thanks Frank, I like your explanations. Hi Steve,
Yes, in this speci…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-02-11:3179028:Comment:120902010-02-11T08:06:01.717ZFrankhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/j
Hi Steve,<br />
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Yes, in this specific case, the direct object, in spite of being placed before the verb, can be ignored.<br />
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The past participle <b>fait</b> is always invariable if followed by a verb in its infinitive form.
Hi Steve,<br />
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Yes, in this specific case, the direct object, in spite of being placed before the verb, can be ignored.<br />
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The past participle <b>fait</b> is always invariable if followed by a verb in its infinitive form. So in that case the "les" (el…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-02-11:3179028:Comment:120882010-02-11T07:11:09.670ZSteve Hajduhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/SteveHajdu
So in that case the "les" (elles) as direct object can be ignored?
So in that case the "les" (elles) as direct object can be ignored? Same thing-- fait is invariab…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-02-11:3179028:Comment:120862010-02-11T00:20:26.684ZNeil Coffeyhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/NeilCoffey
Same thing-- <b>fait</b> is invariable in this case.<br />
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The past participle agrees with the subject with an "être" verb (so e.g. <b>il est venu</b> vs <b>elle est venue</b>).<br />
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Strictly speaking, I'd say that's the only time that agreement is made with the subject. Superficially, you also see agreement with the subject in the case of many "reflexive" verbs, e.g. <b>elle s'est assis<u>e</u></b>-- though strictly speaking, it probably makes more sense to say that it agrees with the <b>se</b> in this…
Same thing-- <b>fait</b> is invariable in this case.<br />
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The past participle agrees with the subject with an "être" verb (so e.g. <b>il est venu</b> vs <b>elle est venue</b>).<br />
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Strictly speaking, I'd say that's the only time that agreement is made with the subject. Superficially, you also see agreement with the subject in the case of many "reflexive" verbs, e.g. <b>elle s'est assis<u>e</u></b>-- though strictly speaking, it probably makes more sense to say that it agrees with the <b>se</b> in this case.<br />
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(Reason: if you say it agrees with the subject, then the reasoning is inconsistent with examples such as <b>Les mots qu'elles se sont écrit(s)</b>, where there's no possibility of making<b>écrit</b> feminine, though in some formal usage it would be argued to be plural and agree with <b>Les mots</b>. The general pattern is that the past participle agrees with a direct object before the verb-- <b>se</b> in <b>elle s'est assise</b>, and <b>Les mots</b> in the latter example. Note that in the <b>Les mots</b> type example, the agreement is actually rare in everyday spontaneous speech, so people would tend to say e.g. <b>La lettre qu'il a <u>écrit</u></b>, but the written norm would be <b>écrite</b>.)<br />
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Buuuut.... despite all that, in the poster's original sentence, <b>fait</b> is invariable. It "just is" with this construction, whatever the argument about direct objects. (Some speakers apparently do sometimes make the agreement, but it's essentially a hypercorrection-- as far as I'm aware, not even prescriptive grammars generally call for it in this case.) Thanks, Neil. How about if it…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-02-10:3179028:Comment:120852010-02-10T22:54:06.096Zstu harrishttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/stuharris
Thanks, Neil. How about if it took a plurality of gardiens to let them in?
Thanks, Neil. How about if it took a plurality of gardiens to let them in? Actually, there's no agreemen…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-02-10:3179028:Comment:120832010-02-10T22:12:15.579ZNeil Coffeyhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/NeilCoffey
Actually, there's no agreement-- it's always "fait". So for example, it wouldn't make any difference if you said <b><u>la gardienne</u> les a fait entrer...</b>.
Actually, there's no agreement-- it's always "fait". So for example, it wouldn't make any difference if you said <b><u>la gardienne</u> les a fait entrer...</b>. a: fait entrer
"fait" has to…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-02-10:3179028:Comment:120802010-02-10T14:47:07.465Zstu harrishttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/stuharris
a: <b>fait entrer</b><br />
"fait" has to agree with the verb subject, which is the <b>gardien</b> (not guardien, by the way). "entrer" is infinitive because it's part of the compound verb "faire entrer."
a: <b>fait entrer</b><br />
"fait" has to agree with the verb subject, which is the <b>gardien</b> (not guardien, by the way). "entrer" is infinitive because it's part of the compound verb "faire entrer."