Has French phonology changed a lot since 18th century? - French Language2024-03-29T09:45:14Zhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/forum/topics/has-french-phonology-changed-a-lot-since-18th-century?commentId=3179028%3AComment%3A119352&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThank you for paying attentio…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2015-07-08:3179028:Comment:1194202015-07-08T08:25:15.884ZAhmet Baltacıhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/AhmetBaltaci
<p>Thank you for paying attention.</p>
<p>Thank you for paying attention.</p> Hi Ahmet -- I don't have pape…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2015-07-08:3179028:Comment:1189732015-07-08T08:21:25.280ZNeil Coffeyhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/NeilCoffey
<p>Hi Ahmet -- I don't have papers just off the top of my head, but I would suggest Googling some of the things I've highlighted in bold and taking a look at:</p>
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<p>(1) Books on the history of French language available in Kindle edition, e.g.…</p>
<p>Hi Ahmet -- I don't have papers just off the top of my head, but I would suggest Googling some of the things I've highlighted in bold and taking a look at:</p>
<p></p>
<p>(1) Books on the history of French language available in Kindle edition, e.g. <a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0415100003/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0415100003&linkCode=as2&tag=frenchlingu0e-21&linkId=CD7XLEGDF73CVX5H" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0415100003/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&...</a> and <a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000P2XIM0/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B000P2XIM0&linkCode=as2&tag=frenchlingu0e-21&linkId=YP7DLHPDHCWHTOIC" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000P2XIM0/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&...</a></p>
<p>(2) 18th/19th century French pronunciation guides and grammars available on Google Books (search for e.g. French Pronunciation and make sure you're searching with a date of 19th century)</p>
<p></p>
<p>P.S. The books I said are available in Kindle may also be available on iBooks or other electronic form of course -- I just happen to know they're available in Kindle.</p>
<p></p> Dear Neil,
The changes you ex…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2015-07-08:3179028:Comment:1193672015-07-08T05:20:00.934ZAhmet Baltacıhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/AhmetBaltaci
<p>Dear Neil,</p>
<p>The changes you explained is not "a lot" for me. Now that I know that French language hasn't changed so much in recent two centuries.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Do you have scientific paper(s) that includes information that you've given above? If so, can you upload them here?</p>
<p></p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p>Dear Neil,</p>
<p>The changes you explained is not "a lot" for me. Now that I know that French language hasn't changed so much in recent two centuries.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Do you have scientific paper(s) that includes information that you've given above? If so, can you upload them here?</p>
<p></p>
<p>Thank you.</p> In general it's probably true…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2015-07-07:3179028:Comment:1193622015-07-07T20:29:39.333ZNeil Coffeyhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/NeilCoffey
<p>In general it's probably true to say that it hasn't changed a "lot" in the last couple of centuries, depending on what your measure of "a lot" would be. Here are some changes that have occurred:</p>
<p></p>
<p>- by and large, <strong>length distinctions have pretty much disappeared</strong> for most speakers (though in most cases exactly where they occurred in the first place and how consistent they were is open to debate), so e.g. at one time the letter "y" is described as representing a…</p>
<p>In general it's probably true to say that it hasn't changed a "lot" in the last couple of centuries, depending on what your measure of "a lot" would be. Here are some changes that have occurred:</p>
<p></p>
<p>- by and large, <strong>length distinctions have pretty much disappeared</strong> for most speakers (though in most cases exactly where they occurred in the first place and how consistent they were is open to debate), so e.g. at one time the letter "y" is described as representing a long "i" sound, the letter "o" is described as being longer before certain letters, final consonants are described as being lengthened before mute 'e', differences in the length of different "e" sounds are reported... now, as I say, how consistent and true a lot of these descriptions are in the first place is open to debate, but what's clear is that most of these supposed distinctions don't exist (or at least, not consistently) today</p>
<p>- the <strong>system of nasalised vowels</strong> has been simplified and the quality of some has changed, notably the nasalised 'e' vowel which is now closer to a nasalised 'a', and the merger of the vowels represented by "un" and "in", which are now essentially pronounced identically for most speakers</p>
<p>- <strong>a few other sounds have disappeared</strong>: French no longer has a palatal lateral phoneme (cf Italian "gli"), and the "back a" has now pretty much merged with the "front a"</p>
<p>- <strong>some liaison behaviours have changed,</strong> e.g. speakers would now rarely use liaison with the final -r of infinitives and with various other verb inflections, and the practice of removing final consonants in e.g. "cin(q) personnes" was more consistent a couple of centuries ago</p>
<p>- <strong>some of the details of the behaviour of "schwa"</strong> ("mute e") have changed, including it being removed or added in some places or its identity changed to an open "e" vowel (so e.g. "cependant" was apparently pronounced closer to "c'pendant"; "cet" was pronounced with a schwa...)</p>
<p>- the <strong>distribution of open vs close "e" vowels</strong> (and possibly "o" and "eu" vowels) have changed a little, so.e.g. "les" was once pronounced with an open "e" and now with a close "e"; the pattern of a close "e" for the future -ai ending and open "e" for other verb inflections was more systematic and intuitive than it is today</p>
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<p>As you can see, though, the "broad system" as a whole hasn't essentially changed much-- arguably none of the above are new processes as such, but rather tweaking of existing ones.</p> Thanks for your reply.
I'm in…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2015-07-04:3179028:Comment:1193522015-07-04T10:43:59.843ZAhmet Baltacıhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/AhmetBaltaci
<p>Thanks for your reply.</p>
<p>I'm interested in phonological changes only. How can I find out how much and in which way French changed since 18th century? Are there any free online (scientifical) sources that I can cite in my papers? (I live in a small city in Turkey, so I can't access so many books)</p>
<p>Thanks for your reply.</p>
<p>I'm interested in phonological changes only. How can I find out how much and in which way French changed since 18th century? Are there any free online (scientifical) sources that I can cite in my papers? (I live in a small city in Turkey, so I can't access so many books)</p> Yes, and some words have chan…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2015-07-04:3179028:Comment:1194112015-07-04T10:34:03.159ZAntoine Olivierhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/AntoineOlivier
<p>Yes, and some words have changed.</p>
<p>Yes, and some words have changed.</p>