Adjectives and "des"/"de" - French Language2024-03-29T07:01:52Zhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/forum/topics/adjectives-and-desde?feed=yes&xn_auth=noyes, you're right. I'm sorry.…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2011-01-30:3179028:Comment:218202011-01-30T04:33:14.160ZPeter Woutershttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/PeterWouters
<p>yes, you're right. I'm sorry. My brain wasn't very switched on to French yet at 6am this morning when I posted this :-) Feel a bit silly now, I should've realised that wasn't a good example.</p>
<p><br></br>Either way, there are a fair few examples of mixed usage of de/des.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for Le Petit Nicolas, it is a children's book that is written from the perspective of a 6 or 7 year old school boy, in 1950s France. It's a little bit like a diary indeed.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>There are a fair…</p>
<p>yes, you're right. I'm sorry. My brain wasn't very switched on to French yet at 6am this morning when I posted this :-) Feel a bit silly now, I should've realised that wasn't a good example.</p>
<p><br/>Either way, there are a fair few examples of mixed usage of de/des.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for Le Petit Nicolas, it is a children's book that is written from the perspective of a 6 or 7 year old school boy, in 1950s France. It's a little bit like a diary indeed.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>There are a fair few chapters of the original Nicolas online: <a target="_blank" href="http://chezpilar.fr/Le%20petit%20nicolas/sommaire%20petit%20nicolas.htm">HERE</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>It's great to use with students in high school who are studying French as a second/third language. Not always easy for them, because the French you learn is often quite formal (here in Australia anyway).</p> Your last example isn't quite…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2011-01-30:3179028:Comment:218162011-01-30T01:51:22.005ZNeil Coffeyhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/NeilCoffey
<p>Your last example isn't quite comparable though-- <strong>plein de trous</strong> means "full of holes", while ?<strong>plein des trous</strong> would theoretically mean "full of <em>the</em> holes" (if you can think of a context where it would fit). However colloquial, there's really no possibility of changing <strong>de</strong> to <strong>des</strong> in this case.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But as I recall, isn't the idea of "Le Petit Nicolas" that it's written as though it is the diary of a young…</p>
<p>Your last example isn't quite comparable though-- <strong>plein de trous</strong> means "full of holes", while ?<strong>plein des trous</strong> would theoretically mean "full of <em>the</em> holes" (if you can think of a context where it would fit). However colloquial, there's really no possibility of changing <strong>de</strong> to <strong>des</strong> in this case.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But as I recall, isn't the idea of "Le Petit Nicolas" that it's written as though it is the diary of a young schoolboy? Or maybe I'm misremembering.</p>
<p> </p> There are plenty of examples…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2011-01-29:3179028:Comment:218062011-01-29T20:25:47.544ZPeter Woutershttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/PeterWouters
<p>There are plenty of examples of this in "Le Petit Nicolas": Sempé & Goscinny <strong>almost consistently</strong> use "des" in stead of "de" before plural adjective + plural noun constructions. Le Petit Nicolas is written fairly formally, but uses quite a lot of colloquialisms.</p>
<p>When I first read it years ago, I didn't pay much attention to that, but now that I'm actually using it with Senior French students, it has become an interesting feature of the…</p>
<p>There are plenty of examples of this in "Le Petit Nicolas": Sempé & Goscinny <strong>almost consistently</strong> use "des" in stead of "de" before plural adjective + plural noun constructions. Le Petit Nicolas is written fairly formally, but uses quite a lot of colloquialisms.</p>
<p>When I first read it years ago, I didn't pay much attention to that, but now that I'm actually using it with Senior French students, it has become an interesting feature of the language.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><em>Examples from "Le Petit Nicolas et les Copains":</em></p>
<ul>
<li><div><em>In "Les Docteurs": "... et ils y vont avec <strong>des</strong> grands couteaux..."</em></div>
</li>
<li><div><em>In "La pluie": "... on marche dans les flaques et on y donne <strong>des</strong> grands coups de pied..."</em></div>
</li>
</ul>
<p>Interestingly, in <em>"Marie-Edwige"</em> in the same book, Sempé/Goscinny write: <em>"Elle avait une robe... [cut] ... avec un col blanc tout plein <strong>de</strong> petits trous sur les bords."</em></p>
<p><em> </em></p>
<p>Obviously, they use both quite intermingled... </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Any more questions or examples you need, let me know!</p> Yes, basically that's it, wit…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-07-28:3179028:Comment:156672010-07-28T14:42:17.658ZNeil Coffeyhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/NeilCoffey
Yes, basically that's it, with a slight proviso about what "correct" really means.<br />
<br />
Put another way: if you use <b>de</b> + plural adjective + plural noun, then generally nobody in an exam will think you've "got it wrong", but if it's in an everyday conversation, it may in some circumstances sound a bit overly formal (a bit like if in English you say <i>cannot</i> rather than <i>can't</i>).<br />
<br />
But if you're not sure, then for now I'd say go with <b>de</b> + plural adjective + plural noun as you…
Yes, basically that's it, with a slight proviso about what "correct" really means.<br />
<br />
Put another way: if you use <b>de</b> + plural adjective + plural noun, then generally nobody in an exam will think you've "got it wrong", but if it's in an everyday conversation, it may in some circumstances sound a bit overly formal (a bit like if in English you say <i>cannot</i> rather than <i>can't</i>).<br />
<br />
But if you're not sure, then for now I'd say go with <b>de</b> + plural adjective + plural noun as you say, and then as you become more fluent, the exceptions will hopefully become clearer. Thanks Neil. I just want to s…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-07-28:3179028:Comment:156662010-07-28T10:10:08.505ZTuba Yucel Boruhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/TubaYucelBoru
Thanks Neil. I just want to summarize what I understood to double check ith you.<br />
<br />
I have to use des + plural noun + plural adjective, and de + plural adjective + plural noun.<br />
<br />
Although in everyday French I may hear des for both forms, the correct structure is as I wrote above.<br />
<br />
Thans a lot.
Thanks Neil. I just want to summarize what I understood to double check ith you.<br />
<br />
I have to use des + plural noun + plural adjective, and de + plural adjective + plural noun.<br />
<br />
Although in everyday French I may hear des for both forms, the correct structure is as I wrote above.<br />
<br />
Thans a lot. No, it's not just about forma…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-07-28:3179028:Comment:156652010-07-28T08:56:35.299ZNeil Coffeyhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/NeilCoffey
No, it's not <i>just</i> about formality. Sorry if I didn't make this clear.<br />
<br />
<b>des</b> changes to <b>de</b> before a plural <i>adjective</i>. In other words, not directly before a <i>noun</i>.<br />
<br />
So in <b>des arbres hauts</b>, the <b>des</b> comes directly before <b>arbres</b>, which is a noun, so <b>des</b> doesn't change to <b>de</b>.<br />
<br />
But in <b>de hauts arbres</b> (and indeed <b>de nouveaux livres</b>), <b>haut</b> and <b>nouveau</b> are adjectives, and so <b>de</b> is used, not <b>des</b>,…
No, it's not <i>just</i> about formality. Sorry if I didn't make this clear.<br />
<br />
<b>des</b> changes to <b>de</b> before a plural <i>adjective</i>. In other words, not directly before a <i>noun</i>.<br />
<br />
So in <b>des arbres hauts</b>, the <b>des</b> comes directly before <b>arbres</b>, which is a noun, so <b>des</b> doesn't change to <b>de</b>.<br />
<br />
But in <b>de hauts arbres</b> (and indeed <b>de nouveaux livres</b>), <b>haut</b> and <b>nouveau</b> are adjectives, and so <b>de</b> is used, not <b>des</b>, because it is directly before the (plural) adjective.<br />
<br />
The point about formality is that this changing of <b>des</b> to <b>de</b> is generally characteristic of formal or literary French. In everyday speech, you will hear <b>des nouveaux livres</b>, <b>des grands arbres</b> etc. Excuse me, I'm a bit confused…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-07-28:3179028:Comment:156632010-07-28T06:37:13.001ZTuba Yucel Boruhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/TubaYucelBoru
Excuse me, I'm a bit confused :-( Because Neil says, the only difference between "de" and "des" is something related with being formal or informal. On the other hand Peter says for the first sentence "des" is used because l'arbre is a noun and the adjective follows it. For the second sentence "de" is used , because it's just before nouveaux.<br />
<br />
I think I need some more details. Sorry :-(
Excuse me, I'm a bit confused :-( Because Neil says, the only difference between "de" and "des" is something related with being formal or informal. On the other hand Peter says for the first sentence "des" is used because l'arbre is a noun and the adjective follows it. For the second sentence "de" is used , because it's just before nouveaux.<br />
<br />
I think I need some more details. Sorry :-( Yep, in this case it's 'des'…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-07-27:3179028:Comment:156562010-07-27T21:41:06.891ZPeter Whitehttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/PeterWhite
Yep, in this case it's 'des' before a noun (1st sentence) and 'de' before an adjective (2nd sentence).
Yep, in this case it's 'des' before a noun (1st sentence) and 'de' before an adjective (2nd sentence). Basically, in formal/literary…tag:www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk,2010-07-27:3179028:Comment:156512010-07-27T16:14:23.492ZNeil Coffeyhttp://www.forum.french-linguistics.co.uk/profile/NeilCoffey
Basically, in formal/literary usage, <b>de</b> is used instead of <b>des</b> when it comes directly before a plural adjective.
Basically, in formal/literary usage, <b>de</b> is used instead of <b>des</b> when it comes directly before a plural adjective.